Re: "This morning I went for a walk"

I thought I'd reply to something here because I didn't want to keep filling up Dennis's tagboard, but basically this is in reponse to the following.

Dennis's Blog: This morning I went for a walk. During a 30 minute period I witnessed:a) Three different dogs shitting in public, two of them in the Bucklands Beach reserve.b) One other dog pissing by two lamp posts.Some people are fucking assholes.

I responded that: (Are owners expected to dehydrate) their dogs before the walk so they don’t have anything left to piss? When they've gotta go, they've gotta go. And you can’t do much about a dog urinating *shrugs*

To which Dennis replied: As for urinating: some puppies cannot control urination when they get excited, but this dog I saw certainly was no puppy. Most dogs outgrow this behaviour, and if not, there are medical solutions such as phenylpropanolamine which should give 'em just enough control to get through exciting situations. The other common reason dogs can't control urination is when they are beign submissive. The most common cause of this is abusive behaviour from the owner's part. I'm not trying to judge, but I AM saying there are a very large number of options which are better than having dogs urinate in public. (And that this was not a one off situation as the owners were obviously very 'oh sure, go ahead' about it. Sure, they accept it, but that doesn't mean everyone else must.)

Anyways, I felt the need to respond in length because that's the kind of twat I am. So yeah:

That "some (dogs) cannot control urination when they get excited" is the premise of your whole response - and you've missed the point (though, as "phenylpropanolamine" tells me you Googled much of it, this isn't surprising). You're referring to incontinence (such as with the generalising "the other common reason dogs can't control urination") with regards to both seeking a treatment for that medical condition and talking about it potentially stemming from submissive behaviour. Specifically urinating in public is not at all a sure sign of incontinence. Sure, some of those dogs might happen to be incontinent the same way that some people who die of AIDS happen to be Manchester City supporters, but it doesn't form a direct correllation which can be pointed to as a characteristic of even the majority of those in question. Most dogs that urinate in public do so as part of thieir nature to mark territory, and I can tell you that not because an irrelevant Q & A found on the web suggests it but because this is common knowledge. A dog that goes for a walk and urinates against something or on the grass or whatever can be alright toilet-wise at home and not demonstrate submissive behaviour or an inability to be able to hold it in, they can be perfectly house-trained and have no medical reason for going against the grain of this, yet still have a tendency to urinate at intervals while in public.

Honestly, your "large number of options" have so far been limited to not abusing your dog and prescribing medication to treat a condition that most of these dogs don't suffer from. If an owner really gave that much of a crap about their dog urinating in public then they could maybe teach their dog to stop doing it, and if you want to throw some more relevant research in there then I might suggest looking at:

Punishing the dog will not work. If he is punished while in the act he will learn not to lift his leg when you are with him. Even if you punish him a second after the act, he does not equate the punishment with the urine marking and this may make it worse. To help this situation, when you notice the dog is about to lift his leg, give him the command to sit. In this position he cannot urine mark.

http://happypawsontario.tripod.com/id16.html

(the ensuing comment about throwing a toy is irrelevant if they're walking on a leash as is required by NZ law, and as such - if you want to raise this point - could not be seen then as an effective way of eventually teaching a dog the behaviour of wanting to sit instead of marking territory due to the reward of playing that will result)

So the response to an annoyance on the owner's part of having to stop all the time on walks while their dogs mark territory is one which doesn't correct behavour in the long term and leads to constant stopping anyway (the problem identified in this article). Certainly from the point of view of such an owner there isn't any significant gain in attempting to take this action, maybe a few seconds less time on each stop. But of course that hasn't yet addressed your point: regardless of how the owner feels, they should be obligated to do something about it on behalf of everyone else who has to suffer the (as yet unidentified, see below) consequences. Right? Because if not, then taking the action prescribed in the article would obviously be a voluntary matter on the owner's part unrelated to the problem at hand.

Now maybe if I was going to take this stance I should have just jumped straight into it from the beginning, and maybe would have if I'd known this would spiral into debate. But anyways:

That very few do give enough of a crap to do something about it like the suggestion above is probably why the behavour that you observed continues, and I will argue that these people are not assholes. Yes, I own a dog so you can say that maybe non-dog owners are more offended by it or something and maybe I'm missing the point as to where the offense lies so feel free to enlighten me but: if I see a dog peeing in public, whether it be on the grass or against a lamp post or a tree... I couldn't care less. The thing is, I'm actually surprised you feel so strongly about it with your 'why should everyone else accept it' take on it. After the dog's left, unlike shit, you wouldn't even know the pee was there unless you saw the dog doing it and hence couldn't, from what I can get my head around, be offended by that action unless you personally had some irrational phobia-like hatred of the sight of a dog doing it. It's a natural liquid that dries up in the sun, probably feeds the grass some nutrients and doesn't leave a lasting mark. Seriously: so what? There's a reason why they haven't passed a law against it when they went through the motions of demanding owner's clean up the crap.

Again, like I said, if I missed the point of how it's offensive, of any damage that is done, let me know. Right now I'm looking at this issue and thinking offense at dogs urinating in public stems from irrational stigma, but I don't mind being proven wrong.